Neurasthenya
Guest
Neurasthenya

JI have a worry, not really related to this particular video (but all of them).
If I am a atheist, who should I “thank to” for you Jim?

Roger Hågensen
Guest

You should in that case use “God” as a methaphor for any authority you see as the highest authority of all and then thank them for Jim. Now if that highest authority of all happens to be yourself then thank yourself for Jim.

Now if that highest authority happens to be Jim himself then you should thank Jim for Jim, something I tend to do.

Neurasthenya
Guest
Neurasthenya

Great, for now on I shall thank Jim for Jim 🙂
Or maybe I should thank Jim parents for having a “fun time” therefore giving birth to him?

Or maybe I should quit being such a idiot and stop this silliness. >.>

ZippyDSMlee
Guest

You mean Cinemagic, they(arty hollowood types) made the term, use it, USE IT!!!!! Games are not film… they should not trying to make devoid of mechanic and level layout depth… Ooo that Spider man game looks half decent, is it?

Nobody's Fanboy
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Nobody's Fanboy
I was about to call BS on the episode being ‘more cinematic’, until I saw the bland overused overlay at the end. Well played sir, well played. Jokes aside, I’d have to find it…I think it was either GamesRadar or Reddit, where a few years back I noticed a trend of “blockbuster gaming” heading towards the sphere of barely-interactive action movie. I’m not sure what the cause is, though. Got it narrowed down to two possibilities…what’s your thoughts? Possibility 1: Over the years, with senior devs handing things over to junior devs, those junior devs becoming senior devs, and handing… Read more »
Jare
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Jare

Did you make those sound effects for the sex scene jim?

Craig
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Craig "The Raccoon "
I seems to me that the 1st and sometimes 2nd generation of games on a new platform be it, Xbox One or PS4 have a hard time finding that sweet spot. The last consoles { 360 & PS3) had the same problem. I think it will take time for the content producers to push these systems and find that next Red Dead Redemption or expand and take on a new Idea or concept. Most games are cut and paste assembly line productions. Our culture as also become a bit impatient and if someone speaks too early about a new IP… Read more »
Adam B
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Adam B

I think the hype around new IP’s is due to the fact that new original IP’s seem to be so hard to come by these days in AAA gaming. Also, I don’t think we have to worry about Bethesda, they seem to like making games that are games.

Ben
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Ben
I don’t think there’s anything *inherently* wrong with wanting to be “cinematic”. Certainly, it shouldn’t be accepted as some shallow buzz-word to write off frame rate or resolution debacles, or excuse a lack of player agency and interactivity in favor of awkward camera angles and three-minute cut scenes that are the only places the actual *plot* advances. But I do still think there are things that video games could learn from movies if they were willing to put more thought into what makes movies work, and how those things can and cannot work within the different medium. “Cinematic” was something… Read more »
Billy
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Billy
Jim is right, though. “Cinematic” is pretty much a meaningless word when publishers and developers use it. Developers use “cinematic” when they don’t have anything more specific. When they have something more specific, they use those more specific things. Take an imaginary Old West-themed game. If the people working on it had used their fandom and knowledge of Sergio Leone films to create a game that they felt fit the Spaghetti Western feel, do you think they’d use the generic term “cinematic” to describe it? Of course not. They’d talk about Leone and Morricone, how music is implemented into scenes,… Read more »
Ben
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Ben

Absolutely, But the word itself doesn’t have to be poison. “Cinematic” can be something for some games to aspire to (though certainly in no way a requirement), but shouldn’t be something to be fallen back upon to cover for a game’s failings.

Sanlumiere
Guest
I think, one more time, we are back to the marketing and hype train that is AAA game development and release. You have called them out on their repeated return to the buzz word: Cinematic – to cover literally a multitude of sins. The goal if creating an interactive movie experience is one that Video games, and I suppose by extension, video gamers, have desired to for some time. Interestingly, the games that truly take this concept to heart end up being somewhat dull games that seem to get you caught in the “slow parts” of the movie because movies,… Read more »
Anton
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Anton

I spit my coffee out all over my monitor when the sex scene came on.

Thanks, Obama

Fazan
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Fazan

Jim… Were you greenscreened against your background in that “cinematic” section? 🙂

StrongStyleFiction
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The two most “cinematic” games I have ever played was Red Dead Redemption and Sleeping Dogs. RDR nailed the look of gritty, spagetti westerns in its environments, art and lighting. Sleeping Dogs nailed the visceral feel of classic Hong Kong cinema. They both had two very different aesthetics from each other. These games were influenced by classic film, where as the developers that talk most about games being “cinematic” just straight copy modern action movie tropes, which is funny because a lot of action movies these days are directed by hacks. Want games to be more cinematic? Try using color… Read more »
Terriosaurus
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Terriosaurus

Very cinematic Jimquisition Jim. I applaud your gaud. Shiny lights with flares. Brilliant stuff. Though, i can’t help but feel the visual quality diminished towards the end. Perhaps the budget was spent friviously on an elaborate breakfast at a classy establishment for distinguished gentlemen such as yourself?

Terriosaurus
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Terriosaurus

Frivolously – Balls to my sperrors!!

Robert H. Dylan
Guest

Excellent as always, Jim. Loved the Andrei Ulmeyda impression. “This is real.. (CinematicTM ;-)”

BAH!
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BAH!
Can’t help but recall that The Jimquisition got bumped to 1080p 60fps not too long ago, and it didn’t help the experience too much. I’m not certain whether or not I completely agree on this one. I agree that movies and video games are different. I agree that using the term “cinematic” as an excuse for technical shortfalls is bullshit. I even agree that 60fps is far superior in many circumstances. But I also think that the visual difference between 60 and 30 (or anything between or above) is a contributing factor the how the game feels overall. I’ve played… Read more »
The Sander
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The Sander
1. The Jimquistion isn’t a video game, it’s an internet show. You’re comparing Apples to Oranges. 2. I’ve actually heard quite the opposite from other Halo players. They say that with the more recent Halo games that they highly prefer the 60 FPS instead of 30 because they like how smooth everything feels. 3. People can always find ways to reduce their FPS, either by cranking up the graphics (which is almost always a good thing) or just limiting it in the options menu (at least you can for PC games). Increasing FPS however, can usually only be done by… Read more »
BAH!
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BAH!

1. It was a joke.

2. You’ll hear that from Halo players because of the competitive nature of the game. It’s one of the scenarios where 60fps is demonstrably superior; but I’m not into the competitive scene, therefore I prefer 30fps. It’s the whole “campaign vs online multiplayer” debate.

3. Reducing your framerate by increasing the graphics has to be the absolute worst solution I have ever heard- largely because the framerate will not be consistent. Using a built-in limiter is pretty much the only viable choice here.

The Flanders Pigeon Murderer
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The Flanders Pigeon Murderer
Thank you for bringing up something that I’ve apparently been thinking about for years, that video games need their own standardized artistic vocabulary. Creators of other forms of visual art like drawing, painting, sculpture, photography, and film making use line, edge, tone, space, perspective, balance, geometry etc. to build and describe an art work. I’m sure there are descriptors that game developers use, but it seems to vary between people far more than the visual art terms mentioned. This is all the more evident when you compare most video game criticism to other forms of art criticism. Video game critics… Read more »
BAH!
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BAH!

Well, it doesn’t help that video games (like pretty much all other forms of media entertainment) blur the line between “art” and “consumer good”.

The Flanders Pigeon Murderer
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The Flanders Pigeon Murderer
It mostly has a lot to do with video games comparatively recent emergence as a serious art form as well. These things always take time, but it is always best to start thinking about them as soon as possible. Also, I think its rather mute to say games blur the lines of art and consumer goods, for the same could be said about music (vinyl records, CDs MP3s), films (DVDs, MP4s, cinema tickets), sculpture (toys and collectables), et al. In this day and age, something can be considered “art” if it’s primary function is to elicit a reaction or emotion.… Read more »
Ffordesoon
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Well, no, I’d say videogames uniquely blur the line, because no other art form can be defective in a literal sense. I mean, yeah, the projector at a cheap movie theater might break in the middle of a movie, but that’s not the fault of the filmmakers. If there’s a rip in a Picasso canvas, it’s not Picasso’s fault – or if it is, you can argue he intended it to be that way. Videogames are programs, and any copy of a program with a bug will have that bug in it. As such, you can’t easily swap a defective… Read more »
Pocket
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Pocket

Oh, there are plenty of movies with literal defects that are the fault of the creators, but they almost exclusively occupy the 0-2 stars range. Movies that get trashed on Mystery Science Theater 3000, or animated films that are sold in the checkout sections of supermarkets in the hopes that Grandma will mistake it for a Disney or DreamWorks film and buy it for their unsuspecting grandchild. What makes video games unique is that they can have literal defects and still be halfway decent.

KirstenQ
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KirstenQ

Always with the Cage bashing, Jim. I for one think Heavy Rain and Beyond are two of the best games last generation. Yes, *games*. Despite you claiming they are just shitty versions of films, I think these titles create an interesting and unique mix between the two mediums. You are not just looking at cutscenes for 9 hours, far from it. And what about TLOU, game of the generation for many and it’s very movie-like.

There is nothing wrong with “cinematic” games like The Order. It’s a perfectly valid variety of the medium. One you don’t happen to like.

Aristatide
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Aristatide

Have you ever actually read or listened to a damn thing he’s said.

Ffordesoon
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The point, you have missed it. Our Jim likes plenty of “cinematic” games, and he’s not arguing that they’re games. In fact, he did a Jimquisition about the whole “not a game” debate a few months back, and came down firmly on your side. I can’t speak for the man, but I believe his position is simply that if you’re going to put something in a game, be it a gameplay mechanic or a carefully authored narrative or even a single, it better be fucking good, not just good for a videogame. That’s certainly my position, and why I’d argue… Read more »
Josh
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Josh

I consider Heavy Rain to be one of the crown jewels of the PS3. Im glad the game exists and im glad there’s a developer or two out there that’s willing to try something other than a shooter or sandbox game.

If i recall, it got a pretty good score from Jim as well

Billy
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Billy
Looking back, Jim gave it a 7, which was a “Good”. Jim did saw that it was a good game, but he also said that it could have been spectacular but that the developers were not up to the task. Some of the praise was for the potential that the game showed rather than necessarily the quality it actually delivered. For a game that so desperately wanted to be considered an interactive movie, Jim criticized its poor writing. “PS3 owners should definitely play it, and many will hail it as a classic, but anybody with an eye for a good… Read more »
Inwoods
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Inwoods

I wonder if you went back further how this would look.

What if creators marveled at how much like a radio broadcast a movie was? (Focus on the sound, don’t worry about how it LOOKS)

Or how radio was only good when you were reading a book out loud? For god’s sake, don’t add music, sound effects, or live reporting.

The “big shift” videogames bring is interactivity, and 30 fps gets in the way of that.

BAH!
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BAH!
I’m not sure how the framerate has anything to do with how “interactive” a game is. In fact, I know for absolute certain that it as nothing to do with that. But you know what does? Good design, art direction, and writing. If a game is immersive and interesting, it doesn’t matter if it runs at 30, 60, or 120. That said, regularly dropping below 30 (or other technical issues) can definitely hurt the experience. I just finished Telltale’s “The Wolf Among Us” on the 360, and the stuttering, audio and visual glitches, and strangely long load times really hurt… Read more »
Billy
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Billy
Framerate is a factor in how responsive a game feels, and responsiveness is a factor in how interactive a game is. Taken to an extreme, imagine an action game running at 0.5fps. You’d be playing a slide show. You’d press a button and have to wait up to two seconds to see the impact on the game world. The impact of the game world on yourself would also be bad, as by the time you saw a potential danger, it would probably be too late to respond. (There are other factors that can make the whole thing worse, as well.)… Read more »
Ffordesoon
Guest

Nnnnnnnot quite. While it definitely is important for responsiveness and just plain looking good, 60fps doesn’t make a game more or less interactive. A game that runs at 1fps is just as interactive as a game that runs at 60; in both cases, the player inputs a command, and the game outputs a response. One feels like shit and one feels great, but in both cases, the player is interacting with the game.

Sorry to nitpick, but it was going to bother me for the rest of the week if I didn’t point this out. 😛

Billy
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Billy
So you’d argue that Dragon’s Lair is as interactive as Dark Souls? You input a command, and the game outputs a response. If the game engine is running at the frame rate, then the frame rate flat out determines how often you can interact with the game. A fighting game engine designed for and locked to 60fps lets you act up to 60 times per second, while a fighting game designed for and locked to 30 fps lets you act up to 30 times per second. One could argue that the former is more interactive than the latter, as the… Read more »
BAH!
Guest
BAH!
Bad counter-example is bad. Dark Souls at 1fps is *technically* just as interactive as Dark Souls at 60fps. No options have been taken away from the player, but merely the number of opportunities. Game performance is a completely different issue from game design- though the two intertwine on a practical level. What you’re arguing is “playability”, not interactivity. No matter how many frames you run Dragon’s Lair, you’ll only ever have a set number of ways to interact. The same goes for Dark Souls. You could run literally any game at 60,000fps, and you’d never have more options to interact… Read more »
Billy
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Billy
Sorry, that was my fault. The first paragraph wasn’t meant to be a counter-example. It was meant to be a question to find out if we were using different standards for the meaning of interactive. Sort of an “If ‘yes’, then we are talking about different things, and probably shouldn’t be trying to change each other’s opinions for that reason. If ‘no’, then read on while I try to change your opinion again.” I sometimes rewrite posts several times before finally posting, and with enough revisions of a longer post I might accidentally excise an important bit and not notice.… Read more »
Nobody's Fanboy
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Nobody's Fanboy
Framerate affects how responsive the game is, the amount of time that goes by between you pushing the button and the game realizing you’ve pushed the button. Let’s use a racing game as an example. Your car is going 60 meters per second…about 135mph…and you’re a mere 1.5m behind, getting ready to make your move in the next corner. The other car gets on the brakes to slow down, here’s your opportunity, you hit the button and! At 30fps, you smash right into the back of him. The car moves 2m every frame, and there’s nothing you can do between… Read more »
BAH!
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BAH!

What you’ve both argued (successfully, I might add) is “immersiveness”, not “interactivity”. low or inconsistent framerates can absolutely hurt the experience in a number of ways, but they don’t affect the “interactivity” of a game.

Extreme example: All the game consists of is pushing a single button. It doesn’t matter how high the framerate is, you’ll only ever have one mode of interaction.

Josh
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Josh

I like my moves, TV shows and even cartoons at a lower resolution and refresh rate because otherwise that shit really does look weird.

But the crux of this Jimquistion seems to be that cinematic gameplay and frivolous cutscenes are bullshit and a waste of resources and I couldn’t agree more

MrInsecure
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MrInsecure
It has occurred to me, on occasion, that game publishers don’t realize they’re working with an interactive medium- the interactive medium, in fact, if you don’t count tabletop RPGs like D&D, Shadowrun or World of Darkness as their own separate thing. Which means creating something to look at is… nice, I suppose, but more important is how it feels for the audience to interact with the game and how satisfying it is to progress. This is the root of the problem: they work so hard on making the game look good, while forgetting to make it feel good, not realizing… Read more »
Jables
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Jables
Not to mention the fact that all –and I mean that literally– of these so called “cinematic” games are riddled with tutorials and button prompts. Cut scenes can be cinematic because they’re passive but, the second a button prompt pops up, BAM video game and possibly a fail state. I used to like cutscenes. Now I get a tiny panic attack, due to the fact that as games get better and better graphics, it can sometimes be difficult to discern whether I’m in control or not. You know what breaks immersion? Wondering whether or not you’re still playing the game… Read more »
Jables
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Jables

*only to end up making a bad game based on the movie. Is what I meant to say.

Crispy Potatoes
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Crispy Potatoes

However, at 720p and 1080p it is not cinematic, as it is at 60fps.

Crispy Potatoes
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Crispy Potatoes

Ah, just saw the comment on the video.

fire_drake
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fire_drake
I like that projects like “The order: 1886” or “Ryze” or even “Beyond: Two souls” exist. It makes me feel like the game developers tinker and push the limits with what is possible and what is not with current gen and that could lead to better games. What is not alright is that these usually turn out to be bad games and they try to get back their expenses from their consumer’s pockets, overhyping them to get full retail price. Some of these games or tech demos would have been better recieved if the price tag was at least half… Read more »
TemplarGR
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TemplarGR

RYSE is a really underrated game. It is not a 9 or 10 game, but it is enjoyable, replayable, and has amazing graphical quality. It’s quite light on system requirements as well, for the graphics it produces. I would love to play it with a VR headset in the future…

I am really confused about it’s critical reception. It is no worse than a COD or Batman game gameplay-wise. Yeah it isn’t open world and it doesn’t have a ton of useless things to collect and minigames to play, but come on…

fire_drake
Guest
fire_drake

I think that what hurt RYSE the most was the level of marketing hype it got. It was advertised as the reason to get an XBOX One and after reading/watching reviews, the main sentiment is that the game fell short, not because it was bad (it was ok), but for the high expectations it had.

The main reason Ryse was pummeled was because Ryse and the game it was marketed as were not the same thing, at least in the eyes of critics and consumers.

SilentPony
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SilentPony
See this is what we get for making frame rate such a huge issue. Truth be told, I prefer console gaming because its cheaper and easier, but I understand the appeal of PC gaming. But lets not mince words here; cinematic games are for the PC gaming master race, not us console peasants. Consoles are too limiting for ‘cinematic’ especially as that’s an ever changing term. It was the golden ones who insisted graphics and frame rate were paramount to a game’s success, and not to be trite, but I’m happy to let PC gamers stew in their own little… Read more »
saxaboom234
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saxaboom234
I am a little confused with your argument. You say that cinematic games are for PC, but PC gamers don’t put up with 30 FPS bullshit that these marketing people are promoting. These marketers are saying that 30fps are more cinematic which every PC gamer will call BS on. If anything PC gamers are against these so called “Cinematic” games, and to marketers, these games are for consoles. I would guess that a good number (probably a majority) of PC players would rather have a game run at 60 FPS and look a little worse than at 30 FPS and… Read more »
Fazan
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Fazan
Actually, it’s the developers themselves who did this, not players. EA entered into a veritable arms race against all of gaming to prove that their games are prettier, bigger and have the superior engine. Their Battlefield series has been competing with Call of Duty by creating ever more elaborate versions of the Frostbite engine, tailoring entire experiences to tittilate you with fancy graphics, all the while losing out on sales to a game series that’s frankly pretty ugly to look at. And let’s not get into the “PC master race” nonsense, please. It’s not PC players who bragged about graphics… Read more »
BAH!
Guest
BAH!
1. Developers/publishers tend to do what customers encourage them to do. If they make no money pushing visuals over content, they’ll stop doing that. 2. Consoles have never been ahead of PC’s in terms of hardware. And while there is a lot of bullshit between the three (idiotic) loyalties in that regard, there’s also plenty of antagonism from the PC side. 3. I have never heard that PC’s are dying as a gaming platform. Not once. But you know what I have heard? That consoles are dying, and for what reason? Because their hardware is so inferior to what a… Read more »
the_madman
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the_madman
Thank God for Jim! I’ve long looked at “cinematic” games with “amazing story” and thought that the only reason it’s a game and not an animated short is because it would be laughed out of any cinema. Of course, a lot of the games I critisize that have “amazing story” only have a super-linear “amazing story” in-between all the actual game. A story’s going on around you for a bit, that you have no input in, then the game kicks in and the story stops, then when the game stops we get another nice little story bit etc… The games… Read more »
Craig
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Craig

The irony is that you can do so much more with video games then you ever can with films.

Ruben
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Ruben

And what about cinematic writing? Every year or so we hear that a game studio hired ‘hollywood writers’ to write the story for some game or another. And when these awesome writers deign to grace video games with their writing we should all rejoice, for they will show us what real writing and real stories are.

Yet, often times the pacing and structure feels off, for writing a story for a one and a half to two hour movie is extremely different compared to a ten to twenty hour game.

Termit
Guest
Termit

Additionally, the transfer of hollywood writers to games did produce a lot of horrible stories, since they tried to write games like movies. You just need to look at Order 1886, the story is basically cheap trash in it’s best moments. And that game sacrificed so much for a bit of weak, stereotypical charachterization and a bunch of cheap storytelling tricks.

You’re doing something wrong, if the (second) most exciting plot point only matter because the game doesn’t tell you something everyone of the mainchars knows. And said point doesn’t even matter for the story told in the game.

Saul S
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Saul S
I think that a game with even good screenwriters on-board has great potential to be horrible. Especially if they write unassisted or in isolation of the development team. As pointed out, videogames and cinema are different formats, so a screenwriter needs to adapt. Frankly, rather than Wolfgang Peterson for a complex, dramatic, fantasy experience , I would prefer Ragnar Tørnquist; rather than George A. Romero for an engaging horror, I want Sam Barlow; and despite his work on Black Ops, I want less David S. Goyer and more Hideo Kojima. Screw having someone who can write even really well thought… Read more »
The Spearman
Guest
The Spearman

Homefront! Should have been a bog standard with unique premise setpiece shooter, that happened to have the Red Dawn screenwriter attached.

Instead, it was a game where what should be a 5 minute section wastes an infuriating 45 minutes as you’re scratching your head trying to figure out WTF the writer wanted you to do in a given section. I spent close to an hour in the Church section because I couldn’t figure out which order to crouch behind sandbags in.

It was like playing a Sierra style make the wrong move and die adventure game. In 2011.

ATBro
Guest
ATBro

The problem being that they use these Hollywood writers to shoehorn a story in around the levels they have made rather than create it all in conjunction with each other, as just about all of the really great story based games have.