The Jimquisition: Mario, Take The Wheel

http://www.patreon.com/jimquisition
http://sharkrobot.com/collections/jimquisition-merch

Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is fantastic, and everybody knows it.

There’s less of a consensus on its “Smart-Steering” option, an accessibility feature that some argue against because it’s an accessibility feature.

Bonus Content: Life Haxz with Jim Sterling

Tobias Rietveld
Member

Can anyone tell me what the (space)game is in the first 10 opening seconds?

Jonathan Allbritten
Member
So, I’m gonna comment on the Dark Souls difficulty argument. Now before you roll your eyes at someone else discussing the narrative and quality of the experience and then rebutting with the obvious “well, it doesn’t effect you so why does it matter?” I’m making it clear that it does, in fact, impact every player. Consider for a moment the Covenants and Online features that play a big part in the Dark Souls longevity and experience. People summoning Sunbros, Bluebros, ect..for help getting through a level, boss, or facing against an invader. People hunting other players as a Redbro, acting… Read more »
Stormbringer
Member
Stormbringer

Did this have to be 20 minutes? 20 minutes!? The “smart steering” looks like the worst possible steering. That seems mean to anyone who would like to use it. Auto-steering seems like something that is completely at home with the go-kart theme. Go-karting is a theme park attraction.

JustHereForNow
Guest
JustHereForNow
For the particular case of Dark Souls he makes, I disagree. The perceived difficulty mentioned actually comes from a set of rules to witch it strictly adheres and the player overcomes the difficulty by learning and mastering these rules and the resulting mechanics. The difficulty also serves as narrative device in a way, underlining the journey through decay, filthy, dark and even the bowels of what is the closest place to hell in the Dark Souls universe, to ascend to the place where gods treat and even willingly go back and deeper to ascend further still. Dark Souls is about… Read more »
Benj
Member
Benj
The argument isn’t that difficulty has no affect on the experience or quality of the game (obviously it does) but that you lose nothing if the option is there and you don’t take it. A Dark Souls easy mode wouldn’t affect anyone except those who selected it, assuming that easy mode players are locked off from PvP which they’re bound to be. I, like you, would encourage people to not choose it and persevere BUT I’d rather low-skilled or impatient players get the chance to see the full game instead of giving up completely. You never know they might go… Read more »
svnhddbst
Guest
svnhddbst
a point i believe is worth making; anger is the indication that the person believes on some level “if i were to just be more forceful, i could achieve my goal”. if you ever find yourself being angry at another person’s behavior, just remember “if some douche came up and punched you in the face, would you be more, or less, inclined to agree with them”. anger is like hyperbole; it makes you less convincing, and leads people to hate you and want nothing to do with you. -from someone with a life of being angry and hyperbolic on a… Read more »
Marshall West
Member
I honestly think that the worst parts of “gamer culture” have just gotten really ok with wearing their awfulness on their sleeve. If it’s not ball-busting, controller-breaking infuriating bordering on unfair difficult, then it’s not the games we grew up with. Older games were hard, but in retrospect, a lot of people forget that most of them were hard because they were cheap, or didn’t actually play well. So now there’s easier modes that do some of the tedious or annoying things for us, and people feel slighted because now anyone who wants to get into gaming doesn’t have to… Read more »
Gaealiege
Guest
Gaealiege
To me, this argument seems disingenuous in the extreme. I understand that there are monstrous people out there (just look at rightwingers of any flavor!), but many hardcore gamers don’t seem to be making any arguments against accessibility. I’m a hardcore, elitist gamer and I have no problems with easy modes existing in 100% of video games. I DO have problems with games where “accessibility” flatout means dumbing down of a game though. Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age: Inquisition, Skyrim, Fallout 4, etc are perfect examples of this. Any complexity that existed in these games was removed to cater to… Read more »
mrsketchy
Guest
mrsketchy
I definitely agree that difficulty levels in games need to be adjustable. As someone who has had issues with the nerves in my hands and high levels of anxiety – nothing’s worse than dropping a lot of money on a game and getting stressed out because I didn’t have the dexterity for certain styles of gameplay. I would love to play the Souls games for their aesthetic and story telling but it honestly seems too intimidating with a player base that has prided itself on the inaccessibility of the franchise to the lesser skilled individuals. I totally get in a… Read more »
Gigaman
Guest
Gigaman
i still think the golden leaf is shit. still a great video, i think a lot of people complain about certain accessibility options too much, but there’s just something betraying about a power up in a platforming game that takes out the platforming. it should really be an option rather then a permanent item in the game. and when i mean option i don’t mean something that’s constantly looming over your head after those five deaths. I also feel like i need to point out something slightly dangerous. it feels partially like Jim is mixing difficulty settings and and accessibility… Read more »
Samuel Bickel
Member

Just look at any thread in a Dark Souls message board asking for an option to opt-out of invasions and you’ll see wailing and gnashing of teeth by people whose only reason to invade people is to be a dick with broken builds. You have to play the game THEIR WAY.

Fuzzybeard
Member

I don’t know why people get up in arms when developers give more options to make the game more accessible to more players especially when it doesn’t intrude on your fun. With you on all points.

Not Lord Atkin
Guest
Not Lord Atkin

I once won a match in Tekken 5 (the first match in story mode in which the other character just stands around and occasionally does a punch and also easiest overall difficulty) by selecting Eddy, putting the controller on the floor and mashing buttons with my feet.

I guess that means Tekken is a shit game for babies.

ILikeKirbys
Guest
ILikeKirbys

No no no, that’s just playing Eddy the way he was meant to be played.

George
Member

I remember years ago, I was playing with my brother and he said, “We wean ourselves off of playing with Eddy.”

That character is so broken…

CaitSeith
Guest
CaitSeith

PSA: Discus is going to disappear soon from this site. If you have something to comment, Jim asked to wait (or else your comment may be lost forever).

InfamousDS
Member
InfamousDS

Oh look, Jim got tired of Disqus and now we have the legacy comments section. Hooray?

CaitSeith
Member
CaitSeith

The comment section is death! Long live the comment section!

InfamousDS
Member
InfamousDS

Praise be to comments section, long may they reign after the fall of comments section!

Justin McDaniel
Admin

Hey guys! Jim posted this on Twitter, but we’re currently resetting the comments to a new system. It’s gonna be a few buggy days of it switching back and forth constantly, so sorry if any comments get lost!

Adzl33t
Guest
Adzl33t

I’m kinda waiting for neckbeards complain to that seizured little girl that she a noob

Great episode Jim, personally Nintendo should just add achievements for people that played without a handicap, and turn off features at tournaments, like elitist gamers make Smash Bros boring without items

La Chica Incognita
Guest
La Chica Incognita
I think I argued this about Star Fox but people’s fears aren’t at all that other people gain access to a game that they couldn’t before, it’s about “dumbing down” the overall product. I will go further to point out that the product in front of us is NOT being “dumbed down” at all…but it is feared at some point that game makers will just realize that making a well balanced and challenging game with a good handicap system for all kinds of players is harder then just making a game babies could complete with only the most minor of… Read more »
Smokey Blunts
Member
I guess for me, I’m not too worried about the overall product or genre being dumbed down…. (realize you’re playing devil’s advocate here) But I think if it did get *too* dumbed down, we’d wind up with a form of pushback, and more hardcore games would start being made. (Not unlike what happened with Dark Souls in relation to easy/bland action RPG games, or Path of Exile releasing so close to Diablo 3, while carrying forward the oppressive atmosphere and darker themes present in the first two Diablo games.) It sounds glib to just say it like this, but I… Read more »
William Jones
Guest
William Jones

I would say the top mods (excluding nude mods) are character visual customisations – particularly armour or clothes mods that have had effort to make them look unique whilst blending them into the games existing lore

William Jones
Guest
William Jones
Hey guys – I’m one of the players being refered to in this video, a player with a disability. My son also has the same disability. I love dark souls. Love it to pieces. I love the combat, the visuals, the exploration elements. I’ve only ever seen a fraction of the games. I started on DS2 and had a brilliant time fighting my way through the mobs, until I get to the bit where you jump out onto a balcony and get atacked by these two gangle knights. I just physically can’t beat them. There’s no “get gud” for me,… Read more »
William Jones
Guest
William Jones
Just to give you lovely readers an update, the “lovely” Derf eventually gave a response of sorts – Without reprinting his toxic shite, he questioned my belief – bearing in mind I have never shared any details of my disability – that an easy mode would help me at all – he basically assumed that, on the basis that he knows the following about me: I have a disability and nothing more, he assumed that he knows how to manage my disability better than I do. Which is nothing new, you very quickly get used to the Derfs of this… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf
You gents have a really interesting definition of the word “toxic”. I do however love that it’s being applied to me in the most behind the back manner possible. By refusing to engage and taking the conversation elsewhere, reproducing none of the actual text, and giving an interpretation devoid of the fact that I related my response to the issue you said he had with gameplay, specifically not being physically able to do certain tasks the game requires. “Toxic” indeed. No, it’s become clear both here and another thread in the same topic. This was never meant by you to… Read more »
William Jones
Guest
William Jones
Oh, Salador has also replied, he took a very different angle – I will quote, just so you can see what toxic garbage actually floats round these people’s heads: “Sadly this means that disabled people are not able to enjoy games and movies on the same level.” OK, roll it back a touch, I didn’t mention movies, at all. So Salador, feel free to explain to me how my unknown to you disability affects my level of enjoyment of a movie? Are you assuming that I have a learning disability? Maybe in your mind, all disabled people do. Maybe you… Read more »
Salador
Guest
Salador
OK, so I’d like to set the record straight. I did only come here after the latest jimquisition because I thought the discussion must have gotten a lot more toxic after I left, but it didn’t, so he must have gotten his ammo from elsewhere. And because I don’t want to be flamed by Jim’s new segment over what I think hasn’t been a particularly bad or badly argued point (I’m not a fan of the new segment – maybe because I see myself as something of a target of it, but I genuinely think it’s a very unfair representation… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf
That sounds like an issue that an easy mode doesn’t seem like it can solve. Mind you an easy mode isn’t what Mario Kart does with assisted steering. That’s more like a default on accessibility mode that assists with inputs. I’m also not sure without knowing the specific spot off the top of my head that this is a one time issue. You said you encountered it early on, I’m almost certain it will get worse later for the same reasons compounded further. The game as a whole is set up to be demanding as an attraction. But that’s not… Read more »
Terry-Osaurusus Hex XI
Member

Holy fuckballs, I’m getting a dejavu feeling with the shame of being a zelda fan upon seeing how other ‘fans’ react, when I see all the dark souls fans on here cultishly defending their baby’s ‘honour’ as if it’s literally a sacred artifact. I love the series, but by shitting christ in hell…never have I felt the need to pretentiously preserve its’ status so fearfully. If you love something, allow it the freedom of desires. Do not hold it so tight like an overprotective mother as it axphyxiates slowly within.

Chris
Member
Yeah, it is baffling how on the one hand these people can complain about how their community is being ‘unfairly vilified’ or whatever, and then not see how spending hours and hours arguing that anyone who isn’t as skilled or as capable as them doesn’t deserve to enjoy something and that anyone who even thinks about the possibility of letting more people enjoy it has to be shouted down is the reason that community might have that reputation to begin with. I love the lore and the art and the world building and basically everything about the Souls games, and… Read more »
Terry-Osaurusus Hex XI
Member

Yeah, the lore, the world, enemy designs and combat are what draws me in also. Not the difficulty. To imply allowing options for others takes away from the main experience of those already enjoying it is, as Jim mentioned in the video, more like the financially privileged looking down at the poor, in all the various justifications brought up. The similarities are a little striking really.

Chris
Member

I can’t enjoy my health insurance without knowing there are people out there who are dying from cancer because they can’t afford insurance themselves! It would ruin it if everyone got healthcare without having to /earn/ it, why should I be criticized for thinking this way?!

Terry-Osaurusus Hex XI
Member

It would unbalance the whole system and devalue the care of those already with insurance! Life in this country was not built for them obviously! FREE education??? Aren’t our children already divided enough?!

ThinkingClass
Guest
ThinkingClass

As a child of the psone era cheats were a necessity to finish games as a 6/7 year old I was useless beyond crash bandicoot.
Easy mode was just a cheat, now it’s a feature, don’t like it don’t use it.
Problem solved
😉

Peter Quint
Guest
Peter Quint

OK, I’ll STFU about this after this comment, I promise.

I just wondered if anyone has noticed how the people arguing against Jim seem to be significantly less full of hatred and contempt than those agreeing with him. The insults are flying from one side, it seems.

There you go, Jim – the level of hatred within the gaming community has increased a bit further. Was it worth going full nuclear on this issue?

Salador
Guest
Salador

Honestly, in misrepresenting people who may have had legitimate points as whiners or elitists, Jim pretty much poisoned the well of discussion from the get go. I like Jim, but he doesn’t deal with disagreement well.

Chris
Member

If that issue is toxic ‘Gamer Culture’ coming down on people doing even basic things to provide better accessibility in games? Than yes, that is worth insulting whiny, entitled gamer boys.

FireroseNekowolf
Member
Counterpoint. I can get absolutely incensed when talking to certain people. Not necessarily because I hate them on a personal level, but because it’s like arguing with a fucking brick wall. No matter what point you make, all they do is repeat the same shit over, and over, and over, and over, and over, because they have to be right. Not because they make good arguments, not because they have consistent or meritable logic, but because “it feels right.” It’s infuriating to argue with someone like that, because it’s not an argument. One side is arguing, the other is being… Read more »
drownedsummer
Guest
drownedsummer

A very accurate description of someone I’ve interacted with on Steam.

InfamousDS
Member
InfamousDS

This. So much this. I still have a Zelda fanboy arguing with me that my opinion being not 100 out of 10 was objectively wrong, but their opinion that all walking sims are crap trash games is perfectly valid.

BAH!
Member
BAH!

It’s a good thing we don’t have any regulars like that here. That would be awful!

InfamousDS
Member
InfamousDS

Yeah, it’s great this is such a wholesome community with absolutely no arguing about unpopular games and defenses made up entirely of YouTuber’s opinions.

BAH!
Member
BAH!

Right? I mean, can you even imagine?

Anthony Pace
Member

Preach brother.

BAH!
Member
BAH!

That’s because you’re arguing against people being able to play games. There’s mo room for respect in such an argument because you are *inherently* disrespecting others.

It’s like the racist who just can’t understand why people won’t approach his arguments for apartheid politely and “reasonably”- as though is assertions gain merit because he’s being calm about them.

You are making assertions that automatically exclude others for no reason other than to exclude others for your own self satisfaction. You do not deserve the privilege of a reasoned argument.

ThinkingClass
Guest
ThinkingClass

Very good point! Is True tolerance to tolerate intolerance? Or is true tolerance to eradicate intolerance?

I persoanally fall on the side of respect is earned and not given so if you take a disrespective stand point I am going to be damn disrespective back.

BUT! If people are arguing about a game designed for children I’ll stir the pot because for (none existent) god sake grow the fudge up :-p.

Gigaman
Guest
Gigaman
i’m not even going to be found in the waves of comments so fuck it. your both wrong and right. optional is everything. i want to play my fighting games without auto combos and thats fine. you want to play with auto combos, thats fine. so long as we get both thats fine. it’s not intruding in what the core and actual fun of a fighting game should be and thats the mind games. the games of what am i going to do next and what are you going to do next. auto blocking is something somewhat more questionable, but… Read more »
Matrim
Guest
Matrim
“also fuck you the golden leaf is still shit. it taunts you. it doesn’t go away ever and i don’t don’t want it patronizing over me. again maybe having it as an actual option in a menu would be better. your doing the same thing as elitists in fact in a way. telling us to man down while we’re all going like man up!” If you’re taunted by the leaf, it means you’re not that good a player. No one is telling you to “man down.” If an optional item is stressing you out, it sounds like you’re the one… Read more »
CaitSeith
Guest
CaitSeith
There was this Extra Credits episode about better ways games can manage difficulty in games (mentioning Dark Souls II as a good example), where they addressed that. I quote: “You know those games where you die a few times in a row, and the game stops everything to ask you ‘Would you like me to switch this to easy for you?’ or ‘Hey! Here is a Golden Doodad of Invulnerability! Go get them champ! 30th time is the charm!’? That never feels good. It just feels like the game is insulting you. Heck! When some games do it, they literally… Read more »
BAH!
Member
BAH!

To be fair, it’s annoying to be reminded that you’re consistently failing. I hated Bayonetta’s death counter, and saw no point in it except to taunt the player. Where’t the benefit in that?

ThinkingClass
Guest
ThinkingClass

Git gud scrub. That’s the point lol

Maluco
Guest
Maluco
People who are okay with Dark Souls are okay with it because it is at least accessible to them. This is the implicit statement here, that only people able to git gud should be allowed to access the experience. Thing is, relatively speaking, the person on easy mode may actually be having a similar experience, they just have a greater threshold for mistakes that maybe one day eases them into playing normal mode. The other thing that I think gets missed in these discussions is most people on the git gud probably grew up with video games. Video games that… Read more »
Stelios Markios
Member

To be honest, the first DMC was hard even on easy. That game was made with the utilization of intricate combos being integral to the gameplay and there’s only so much you can stir away from your main mechanic in order to change the difficulty, be it harder or easier.

Derf
Guest
Derf

Ironic really as dmc1 kicked my ass on easy and it never occured to me to ask for the play experience to be altered further beyond the developer’s design. Some of us accept that as part of the experience and make oir choices to pursue further accordingly.

qorl123
Guest
qorl123

Because you didn’t have to ask, because you were already given an easy mode. In DMC, unlike in DS, there is literally nothing but combat. You get the easy mode prompt after you die enough on normal, so why did you take it? Why do you think it was even put there in the first place? And this should show you that an easy mode doesn’t actually have to be easy.

Derf
Guest
Derf

And that mode proved insufficient, so by the logic presented i should have asked for another?

Or are we suddenly pibotimg from being inclusive to saying just having another mode is the benefit regardless of who it does or doesn’t enable?

What is the end goal here?

qorl123
Guest
qorl123
“by the logic presented i should have asked for another?” No, the game already gave you a concession of an easy mode. But if there was an even easier baby mode, it wouldn’t matter, Dmc wouldn’t be “diluted”. If there was no easy mode, it never cross your mind to wish the game didnt stonewall you? Really? “Or are we suddenly pibotimg from being inclusive to saying just having another mode is the benefit ” We’re talking about throwing the less-skilled players a bone. But actually, yeah, another mode is a benefit regardless – and it still wouldn’t allow all… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf

So again, what is the goal. We have a game that makes the omission and the argument seems to be questioning the merits to the point of directly stating the decision is wrong.

That the game can’t or should decide to center around a specific experience and have that be beneficial even if exclusive, is that what the end point is?

Maluco
Guest
Maluco
Geez mate why critique anything with that attitude? Some of us are just approaching this from the idea that maybe experiences would benefit by being more inclusive. That’s literally it. You don’t even have to compromise the core experience to do this. Difficulty tuning is usually only exhaustive for the core intended experience. Invisible Inc even spells out which difficulty is their tuning difficulty. The reason you do this is so you can pick a target, once you cast the net wide with alternate difficulty levels then that right balance goes out the window, but that’s fine cause you’re not… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf

And some games approach that differently, by intentionally providing tools rather than difficulty toggles.

Which will resonate with some more than others and some not at all.

I’m all for critique, but not ignoring design intent ir invalidating design and the community built around it.

qorl123
Guest
qorl123

….The goal is to give players more options so that they can tailor their desired experience to a reasonable degree.

Maluco
Guest
Maluco

How is that ironic? DMC has evolved as series just like any other, and DMC1 was essentially the first of its’ breed.

Asking for an easy mode is no different than critiquing any other aspect of a game, which git gud bros do plenty of. Why should difficulty be held on a pedestal?

Derf
Guest
Derf

It had an easy mode, it wasn’t easy enough for me, but that was a critique of my skills, no the game. I don’t see why the minimum threashold for the experience someone is trying to create needs moved further.

Souls games I’d like to think at this point omit easy mode for a reason. And while some hit walls, it should be ok for the experience to be above them. I’ll probably never finish bloodborn, but that’s fine with me. I liked what I played before I hit my wall.

Maluco
Guest
Maluco

Challenge is relative, not expendable. Until we can agree on this there is no discussion. The whole concept of accessibility hinges on the concept of relative experiences.

Derf
Guest
Derf
No one said challenge was expendable. Challenge is highly variable within the same world due to the tools and techniques available to the player. Being that I’ve argued this several times it’s clear that expendable difficulty was never the crux of ant argument I’ve made. Rather I’ve argued that A) the tools to fine tune difficulty already exist,B) The remaining portion of that difficulty drives the coop side of the multiplayer system and C) bypassing it diminishes both of those aspects. The extent that players individually feel those 3 elements being variable is the whole intended point. One bros, soloist,… Read more »
qorl123
Guest
qorl123

Exactly, difficulty is relative.

Kev' Bryant
Guest
Kev' Bryant

All this talk of Dark Souls. I’m cool with an easy mode. But can we get a pause function in off-line? Sometimes I need a shit…..

Chris
Member

But don’t you understand, part of the Undead Curse is not being allowed to take a shit. It would completely ruin the artistic integrity of the series of casual noob scrubs like us were allowed to get up from the computer or console for any length of time to take a shit.

Stelios Markios
Member

You must understand that not being allowed to shit, is an integral strength of the game. It creates tension, discomfort, uneasiness and the constant fear that you are going to shit yourself. All these emotions are pivotal to the REAL dark souls experience! Of course I’m kidding, DS really needs to fucking pause when offline.

MechaSlinky
Guest

No! The series is all about not shitting, and shitting would only ruin it!

Miles Saintborough
Guest
Miles Saintborough

There’s a game that does that and better. “Don’t Shit Your Pants”

MechaSlinky
Guest

I’m losing that game right now…

Peter Quint
Guest
Peter Quint
OK, here’s an argument using previous ideas of JIm’s: 1.) There are a group of people who want hard games with no easy mode. A quick scan of the comments here will verify that. 2.) By making an easy mode on every game you are removing the part of the market that caters to this preference. 3.) Therefore easy mode on every game actually limits the diversity in the games market. 4.) By all means allow some Nintendo stuff to have easy modes, that’s their thing, but leave some games with a real challenge in them for those who like… Read more »
MuddyScarecrow
Member
“…easy mode on every game actually limits the diversity in the games market.” ….And here we have an even better cock cigarette than the one Arkane gave us. The very idea of easy mode is to get more people to play a game. That’s what Intelligent Systems did with Fire Emblem when they implemented Casual Mode. Without the threat of permadeath more people could play it without worries until they were comfortable enough to play it the hard way. I’m almost positive that’s one of the biggest reasons that game got so big. And now here we are with three… Read more »
Chris
Member

If your mode of enjoyment requires other people to be excluded and can be ‘ruined’ by the knowledge that someone, somewhere might be having fun the wrong way? Yes, that is wrong, and it’s right to call you out on that. It’s not healthy to be so hung up on how other people are having fun that it ruins your fun. You are what is wrong with ‘Gamer Culture’ in a nutshell.

Peter Quint
Guest
Peter Quint
There are so many replies here I might as well reply to myself as I’m adressing all of them. The key is this: there is an enjoyment in completing challenges that it is known not everyone can do. If you look at all areas of life this applies from people climbing mountains to running marathons to learning a new language. The pride that comes from setting yourself a difficult target and achieving it is not unhealthy. As I said, there are plenty of games with an easy mode and good for them, but some people want an exclusive challenging game… Read more »
LTGM
Guest
LTGM

Okay so the easy counterpoint here is, if you want an “exclusive challenge” that’s why the good lord gave us Platinum trophies. Real simple. Make a trophy that’s just “beat the game on hard mode” and the people who can’t play on hard mode can’t get that or the platinum trophy. You still get your ego boost, they get to enjoy the game.

Also I’ve never had an xbox so I don’t know what the platinum trophy equivalent is.

InfamousDS
Member
InfamousDS

There isn’t one. Actually, I think games with perfect fractions of maximum/maximum got a gold coin with a G in it (for gamerscore) on 360, but I haven’t seen any X1 games with perfect fractions.

Most Xbox gamers call them “thousands” in my experience.

Matrim
Guest
Matrim
Expect by having an additional easy mode you are allowing more people to enjoy the game and the people who want hard modes still have their hard mode. So, no, your logic fails. Yes, completing challenging tasks can be rewarding, but that’s not why everyone plays games. I’ve beaten every Mass Effect game on the hardest difficulty, but when I go back and play them I do it on the easiest, because I’m not playing them for the challenge, I’m playing them for the experience. When I throw in Prototype or similar games I don’t do it for the challenge,… Read more »
Rattlehead
Guest
Rattlehead

That’s also a nonsense argument. It screams entitlement to demand that someone has to enjoy something a specific way or else you can’t enjoy it yourself. The problem isn’t on other people to give in to such ridiculously selfish demands. I think you need to re-examine how you view video games if you can only enjoy something if someone else can’t.

Rattlehead
Guest
Rattlehead
That argument doesn’t work, since the people that want hard games, still get the hard games. Nothing is lost for them. There is no lesser product here. Dark Souls having an OPTIONAL easy mode, doesn’t take away from your ability to enjoy the game how its supposed to be. I see below, you try to justify it as splitting the playerbase for online, but that’s not a likely outcome. Souls has a solid playerbase and most people that are usually playing the game aren’t gonna get the new one and play it on easy mode. Some might, but there’s a… Read more »
Stelios Markios
Member

Dark Souls having an easy mode indeed won’t take anything away from players who will play it on “hard”. It will take away from the players who will play it on easy though, because the game’s difficulty is very stringy tied to its theme and other very important parts. Those on easy are those who will get the lesser experience and that’s the problem, not the opposite.

Rattlehead
Guest
Rattlehead
Only a person who enjoys the hard game would think that its a lesser experience though. It’s the entirely wrong mindset. Look at it from the point of view of the people that quit and never experience the full game or who never play the game in the first place, because they know how hard it is, as Dark Souls is specifically known as the game of “You Died”. Of cheap traps and ridiculous bullshit bosses. The game is all about “Git Gud”. It’s incredibly intimidating, especially if the person isn’t a particularly great gamer. Even good gamers have a… Read more »
Stelios Markios
Member
Not really, the game is not about “you died”. This is also why I disagree with he whole marketing of DS2. The game is not about “git good” either, in the way elitists preach it. It is about steadily learning, getting better and getting a sense of accomplishment after conquering an initially unsurmountable obstacle. I’ll say it again, DS is about the feeling of accomplishment among a dire dead and hopeless setting and its difficulty servers to that, not about the difficulty in itself.. Players who skip the difficult part will also miss the whole feeling the games tries to… Read more »
Rattlehead
Guest
Rattlehead
Again, you are clearly only looking at it from the point of view of someone who has beat the series, who understands everything, and can utilize the games mechanics to their fullest. To you, there’s only one way to experience the game and one way that matters. I know purists who think offline mode ruins the experience and as someone that always plays in offline mode, I couldn’t disagree more. If I had to deal with invaders regularly, I’d quit the game. And I have no interest in co-op. If someone can’t progress in the game or won’t get into… Read more »
Stelios Markios
Member
I actually agree about playing offline. I play offline myself because I don’t want to have my game disrupted by some pro mad skillz pvper. Playing online is a part of the game where the added difficulty of invasions doesn’t serve the narrative or the feelings of the main game. It servers purely the competitive element, which I have no interest in. Still, as long as you can play offline there are no problem and besides that, the meta and the competitive element are huge draws for some people, to the point where they dictate the meta of the game.… Read more »
Rattlehead
Guest
Rattlehead

In the end, it comes back to simply about whether someone can progress or not. While I’m no expert on the games, I’ve played them all, but only beat Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne, I know what the games are about, and I much rather see someone have a chance at experiencing the games great moments, than never doing so at all. The games are much more than their difficulties and leniency for casual players will still offer them a pretty great time.

Stelios Markios
Member

Perhaps you are right. I’m no game dev and I am open to alternatives if done correctly. I still don’t think an easy mod would be a great idea for DS but we won’t ever really know unless they do it. They could very well prove me wrong.

qorl123
Guest
qorl123
“some people do want a challenge that only some can achieve. That is integral to the enjoyment ” Pure. Fucking. Elitism. And that challenge would be completing the game on normal mode, even if easy mode was present. Then give them an achievement or a ribbon or special gear and they’ll have their bragging rights they so desperately crave. “Jim’s only response to that is to say “your mode of enjoyment is wrong – we’re taking your enjoyment away”.” No, that is mostly what people like you are saying. But actually, yeah, if the only way you can enjoy yourself… Read more »
Stelios Markios
Member
Regarding that comment about a challenge not everyone can achieve, I agree with you, that’s elitism but so it happens to be true in some games. I wouldn’t dare think I can ever get good in fighting games or starcraft as some other people. Even if I put thousands of hours into such games, I will eventually hit my skill ceiling, which is considerably lower than that of other players. Regarding Darks Souls specifically though, I truly believe that it is a game absolutely everyone, no matter their skill level, can finish. The game is smartly laid out in such… Read more »
Maluco
Guest
Maluco

Funnily enough, my kid recently learned to primarily use hotkeys and control groups in Starcraft 2. How do you think he got to that point? Casual difficulty single player and Archon mode. Accessibility concessions.

Fighting games are working on exactly the same accessibility concessions, and it hasn’t hurt their competitive nature any. They’re also working on better and better beginner training because it turns out they want more people to play their games. Funny that.

RifleAvenger Sashiro
Guest
RifleAvenger Sashiro
No such methods in fighters undermine the core design (competitive 1 vs 1) though, as all are undeniably WORSE to use than regular control schemes past beginner level. On the other hand, in a single player game where the core narrative, backed by mechanics, is to struggle a universal difficulty dampener undermines what the game attempts to convey. Making particular playstyles more beginner friendly is one thing (ex. Dark Souls 1 poisemonster, Dark Souls 2 casters), but something like enormous damage/defense modifiers may well torpedo the game’s design. Probably the best example I can give is Picnic Mode in the… Read more »
Maluco
Guest
Maluco
So what you’re saying is you used picnic mode to play the game your way which involved unlocking all the character classes and then using ng+. I feel like you’re undercutting your argument when you’re saying you used accessibility features in order to play the game the way you wanted. Yes, the primary design is compromised when you balance too far in one direction or another, but here’s the thing, the player who needs the accessibility balances in all sorts of ways through their badness. Is it really that big a deal that one player gets to make more mistakes… Read more »
RifleAvenger Sashiro
Guest
RifleAvenger Sashiro
I view the reason they’re locking classes at all, making them “story mode” exclusive, as itself an accessibility feature. “Story Mode” provides a preset recommended party, usually with 1-2 very powerful unique characters/classes, largely address to prior complaints that the story was too threadbare and that building a viable party was too hard for some players. So I feel I had to ENDURE a crappy accessibility mode to expedite accessing things locked behind another accessibility mode in order to play the mode I actually wanted. I admit, Dark Souls isn’t at some goldilocks point that couldn’t be altered one way… Read more »
Stelios Markios
Member

I never said these games shouldn’t be accessible. There’s no doubt though, that at a high level of play, there are very real skill ceilings. Skill ceilings I personally can’t surpass but it doesn’t bother me either. I still enjoy them none the less, exactly because they are accessible.

Maluco
Guest
Maluco

Of course. Not everyone gets to be top dawg, sorry I misinterpreted your post.

BAH!
Member
BAH!

Here’s the flaw in your argument: The easy mode is an option. In no case is the game made easy with no higher difficulties, therefore the people who want a challenge still have what they want. Nothing has been taken away from anyone. Well, I suppose *something* has been taken away from people who can’t stand the idea of easier modes existing, but fuck them.

And that last paragraph? Are you really that stupid?

Derf
Guest
Derf

As someone who is against playerbase fragmentation due to half of what I do in game being offering help, yes, difficulty reductions affect me.

Fewer players to invade affects pvper’s and i don’t buy the logic that no existing players would use easy mode, even as only farms for souls while starving both coop and pvp.

And yes, having that view nets you some nice condescending responses around here.

qorl123
Guest
qorl123

So…it would affect you because less people would need your help? What?

“Fewer players to invade affects pvper’s ” Not if the people who want/need an easy mode aren’t playing at all. A player needing an easy mode wouldn’t want to get invaded anyway and probably play offline.

Derf
Guest
Derf

I mean, are we forgetting this series represents one of the best collections of coop ARPGs to come out recently, possibly ever?

Do you think that shouldn’t be important to anyone?

Derf
Guest
Derf

Yes, exactly.

Fewer challenges means less seeking help, which means less for helpers to do.

And I directly addressed the idea that somehow only current non-players would use this.

qorl123
Guest
qorl123

And this doesn’t ruin the challenge, by the way? Someone can summon a veteran to kill smough and ornstein for them. And so other players shouldn’t have a more enjoyable experience or be allowed to overcome challenges on their own, because you need to have opportunities to help? Nice. It’s not all about you, though.

” that somehow only current non-players would use this.” You didnt do a good job of it. So they would farm souls on their easy mode characters, for their easy mode characters. So what?

Derf
Guest
Derf

All about me as if I’m the only one sunbroing? Or are the others a nonfactor?

I mean that question, because the whole “It’s not about you” gets brought up so frequently that I wonder if people realize this system is one of the core game functions spanning the whole series.

And we still have pvp invasions.

As far as challenge, this is kind of the point, the build in of means to address challenges rather than mode switches. I view it as intent, and quite clever.

BAH!
Member
BAH!

So what’s the percentage you expect, then? 30%? 50%?

It’s Dark Souls. It has a reputation. Even with an easy mode available, the vast majority of people are still going to play it on normal difficulty. And those that don’t likely aren’t going to be interested in invasions. So maybe use your brain and think about how such a mode could be easily crafted to prevent it from negatively affecting other players (such as we see in MK8D) instead of assuming it would be implemented in the laziest, most haphazard way possible.

Jesus christ you people are stupid.

Derf
Guest
Derf
Ok, so proving my last point right off the first reply, not surprised, but I do wonder why people engage with the need to be as rude as possible, but no matter. You speak of repitation in the same topic that proposes changing that reputation and further assume no one wpuld change because of some unwritten code I suppose I’m not aware of leaving me no reason to think your position well thought out. So the end result is as stated, that or as I posted elsewhere you fundamentally change the game to suit “auto-steering” that can’t screw you over… Read more »
BAH!
Member
BAH!
So you DO assume most people would switch to the easy mode! You must also assume most people are going to turn on auto steering- which cannot POSSIBLY change the core game design in ANY WAY. Holy fucking shit, you people really are that stupid. And I’m “engaging with the need to be as rude as possible” because your position is so fucking stupid. You’ve put no thought into your argument apart from “an easy mode implemented in a specific way would hurt my experience”, and I can’t approach that with anything but utter contempt and dismissal. I see you… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf

I will address a few aspects though, you’re addressing one single individual amonst a group that benefits from a singular difficulty, true. That doesn’t make the harm any less true for me and all those others. If your saying the community as a whole doesn’t matter, that’s some hubris you got there.

But mostly your fundamental lack of respect is 100% your own making. That’s your choice and an apparent failure to own it. You want to be an asshole because you want to be an asshole.

BAH!
Member
BAH!
What is there to respect? You are making unsupported assumptions, and insisting that all other suggestions to the contrary have no validity or credibility.You have come into this argument with nothing but selfishness and onbstinance, yet I’m supposed to respect that? On what planet is any of that even remotely deserving of respect? But here’s a reasonable reply to your concerns: If a developer were to implement an easy mode in the way that you have assumed (invasions enabled, variable mid-game difficulty, extreme design modifiers), then yes, your experience would suffer. And I sympathize, I really do. But you are… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf
Again, I would love to know why you think there would be no player shift. You make accusations about unsupported points then follow with your own. And actually I did support mine. As far as the design specifics, no, not much is assumed, but rather taken from what people are asking for and suggesting what a mode should look like. Hence questioning where the goal lies. What defines more accessible? Is it just damage? Modifications to potential loss? Other mechanics? But one that does come up frequently is eliminating invasions. It’s come up here in past posts. And also called… Read more »
BAH!
Member
BAH!
You have yet to support a single point with any amount of reason or logic. You keep making assumptions based on.. I don’t even know what. For example, you’re working off the assumption that players will *usually* take the easy way out if given the opportunity. That is absolutely false in so many provable ways, not the least of which is Dark Souls itself. The series already has numerous mechanics at play to assist struggling players, but how many actually use them (in cases where they’re presented as options)? Instead, we see the the prevailing attitude of “git gud”, not… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf
Not assuming usually, but accounting for the potential benefits especially if difficulty is variable and pvp is toggled. IE: As a sunbro I’m not affected if people go easy on farron keep as much as the watchdogs are. And I can see that happening because of them. And invasions are integral to design as, when the game is played online with the full feature set one must make concessions to ensure avoidance and npc invaders exist even offline. And no, from’s design does use difficulty and consequence as core components, and encourages the use of its toolset to fine tune… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf

Wut?

You need tp calm down and read. None of what you just regurgitated there has anything to do with what I wrote.

BAH!
Member
BAH!
“You speak of repitation in the same topic that proposes changing that reputation” No game’s reputation is based on – or even affected by – the easy mode. What’s more, Dark Souls ALREADY HAS its reputation. It’s had it since Demons’ Souls. So unless the NORMAL difficulty changes, Souls-esque games will always have that reputation “assume no one wpuld change because of some unwritten code” Wrong. I DO assume that, but I ALSO ASSUME it won’t be a SIGNIFICANT PORTION of the CURRENT PLAYER BASE because THOSE THAT ARE CURRENTLY PLAYING LARGELY ENJOY IT AS IS. “you fundamentally change the… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf

So the unforgiving aspect of the reputatio
endures despite no longer being unforgiving?

Also, you admit to an assumption. One I don’t agree with as people take easy routes and competitive shortcuts. You’ve never suggested a reason why this wouldn’t ne the case.

Also, if you’re only talking margin of error why did you bring up mk8? That’s not was it does. It’s an autocorrection. The margin of error is the same, but the inputs are simulated. So why did you bring something up that was fundamentally not what you meant?

BAH!
Member
BAH!
1. I literally stated why that’s not the case. Read it again. 2. Yes, people will, but not the majority. And in DS’s case very likely not a large percentage. The reason for this is because of what DS *is*. According to your logic, large groups of *consistent* players (that’s a VERY IMPORTANT QUALIFIER because it ties into your concerns about the community) never go higher than easy on any given game. So unless you’ve got some evidence to back that up, I’m going to insist that’s not even remotely true. And by the way, I HAVE seen some data… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf
1. A game with a reputation of not having an easy mode will have its reputation changed through that inclusion since the omission helped it stand out in the first place. 2. Not quite, consistent players may not dip to easy constantly, but depending on potential mechanics changes may dip out on parts. The fear is less a wholesale abandonment but strategic use to bypass some multiplayer aspects which may be keyed to areas should multiplayer be affected by such a mode. 3. Apples and oranges. For all intents on the track is where you want to be. Souls combat… Read more »
BAH!
Member
BAH!
Again, you’re assuming mid-game modifiable difficulty. Why are you assuming that- especially in a scenario where, yes, it could be detrimental to other players? But let’s take a step back and ask the question: if one player’s experience doesn’t affect another’s, why does it matter if P1 dropped to Easy to beat a boss? It doesn’t affect you or anyone else, therefore it’s none of your concern. And the comparison is apt, because DS has this thing called “summons” that can make the game *significantly* easier without even having to include a lower difficulty setting. And before you say “see,… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf

Also, as far as midgame selection, I’m just pulling from trends in game accessibility and using examples. Though now we’re walking back on the idea of graduation to normal a bit since either you can’t with a safety net or worse.

BAH!
Member
BAH!
I was thinking about that, and a simple solution is that dropping the difficulty at any point could lock out invasions for that game. You’d have to start a New Game to reset it. But I still think a static difficulty would be easier and more beneficial in the long run. Again, I understand the concern about the PvP, but there are solutions that take mere seconds to think up. Also, I’m working off the assumption that Easy would not be so hamstrung that it wouldn’t prepare the player for Normal in some way. After all, simply playing for that… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf

Hold on, back up a sec. I don’t recall mentioning anything about the triumph of using a particular, narrow subset of the rules or taking pride therein. That would be hypocrytical. I mentioned being one of those summons and just explicitely supported using the games system as was clearly intended.

So taking the point of only some of the possible ways as being the right ways is a nonstarter. So I can still say “see…”

And lastly, what game is known for its omission of an easy mode? Is that not a part of it’s reputation?

BAH!
Member
BAH!
1. That wasn’t meant for you specifically, but it IS a very common argument in defense of the game’s design. Like, it’s the #1 thing people bring up. The takeaway is that regardless of the path taken, the result is exactly the same. 2. I have never once heard any claim that one of DS’s “features” is it’s lack of an Easy mode. It’s only ever that “the game is hard”, something that would NOT change if an easy mode were introduced because, as I keep telling you, a game’s reputation for difficulty is not affected by having one. That… Read more »
Derf
Guest
Derf
1. Oh trust me. I am aware. I’ve argued against that very thing because I don’t feel the game is diminished by it. And further I do feel it is the mechanism designed to allow greater accessibility while maintaining the rest of the games aspects. 2. I have. But interestingly reputation isn’t the same as a bullet pointed official feature list. You know it doesn’t have an easy mode. I know that. The other 4 posters I’ve engaged with opinions similar to yours know that. Extra credits did a video about how it handles difficulty instead of an easy mode… Read more »
RifleAvenger Sashiro
Guest
RifleAvenger Sashiro
Not a direct reply, but I would like to bring up a game series I feel had its design demonstrably harmed by accessibility features: Etrian Odyssey. First off, the first few had only one difficulty, and it was admittedly very hard. The stated goal of those games was to emulate early first person dungeon crawlers like Wizardry and ATLUS’ own early 1st person Megaten titles. Then they added an easy mode in EO4. In every game after that “normal” is the “easy” from EO4, the old base difficulty became “Expert,” and they added additional “easy” and “picnic” (AKA no combat)… Read more »
BAH!
Member
BAH!
It sounds like the problem is not the options themselves, but the way they were implemented. And that can happen, as you very clearly pointed out. But your example also makes it sound like Atlus was specifically trying to make the game easier overall with little thought toward the core/original demographic. That’s a concern all on its own, but also one that doesn’t come up very often outside of the hypothetical. Yours is the first I’ve heard of a company actually doing it over the course of a series- particularly a series designed to be challenging. But all that said,… Read more »
RifleAvenger Sashiro
Guest
RifleAvenger Sashiro
It’s also worth noting that taking things to far in the OTHER direction can be terrible too. Example 1: Expert mode in EOU2 is so brutally tuned w/o Fafnir that making an error versus trash mobs can routinely 1 round kill you, super offensive parties have to pray they don’t miss an ailment (so pray to RNGesus), and super turtle’y parties have issues with sustain and multiple “do or die” DPS checks in boss fights. As “Normal” is closer to EO4’s “Easy,” there is literally no middle ground between easy and “play optimal or die.” That gets very taxing even… Read more »
Stelios Markios
Member
Challenging games are good and all, but the implementation of an easy mode is dependent of how their difficulty is conveyed in game. If their difficulty is used as a catalyst that strengthens and ties together other meaningful parts of the game, then an easy mode could possibly hinder the whole experience. However, if we’re talking difficulty just for the shake of challenge in itself and nothing more, I don’t see why an easy, and other difficulty modes wouldn’t be welcome. There’s tons of games that have many difficulty modes that go beyond even easy, like Nier with it’s automated… Read more »
Stelios Markios
Member
Reading all the arguments below about Dark Souls, I think most people are missing some important factors that have to do with the initially overwhelming difficulty and core design of the game. DS, like DeS before it, is indeed about getting good, but not in the insulting “git good” way people are spewing left and right. It’s about surprising pleasantly yourself when you realize you are better than you thought. The core of these games is to provide seemingly impossible challenges to the player, test their patience and will, until they conquer said challenges and getting the feeling of great… Read more »
InfamousDS
Member
InfamousDS
But what if I told you that the same reward quotient can be achieved by more people if they were capable of overcoming the challenges? As it currently stands, you need a relatively high minimum skill level (compared to other ARPG), a high tolerance for punishment in addition to a good amount of time in which to play, an excellent memory, the capacity to learn from mistakes, the capacity to think outside of a favored play style, and a high spatial awareness in order to accurately gauge both the environment and the enemy placement on the fly. All of these… Read more »
MechaSlinky
Guest

Agreed! People often forget to consider why a game is doing something, and only ever look at what it’s doing.

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